Snake proof gaiters ?

Hi Anthony
I doubt if I would trust anything to be completely snake proof - unless you
wore steel gaiters. Also a good sized snake could bite you above the gaiter
couldnt it? When we did a 23 day remote walk we got an upholsteror to sew up
very thick canvas which was great but by the end of 3 weeks anywhere where
there was a crease had worn through so even the canvas didnt stand up to it.
I did get a strike a couple of years ago by a brown snake!!!!! I trod on its
tail, about 5 foot long and he reared up and hit me on the gaiter then very
quickly left the scene. There was the tiniest wet patch left behind and I
screamed at my husband who came back and helped me quickly remove the
gaiter - thank god it didnt penetrate through to my skin. I had a bruise on
the spot for a few days so it hit me with a fair wack. From memory they were
Macpac gaiters but they too didnt last long - creases just wear out.
Good luck looking
Kathy.

Post by a***@gmail.com
I have some cordura gaiters which I wear to provide protection against
scrub when walking off-track, but I was wondering if there are any
gaiters available in Australia which are specifically desgined to
prevent snake bites in the summer ?
I found this info on a US web site, but could see no mention of snake
http://www.forestry-suppliers.com/product_pages/View_Catalog_Page.asp?mi=4474
Anthony.
http://adunk.ozehosting.com

Roger Caffin

2006-11-02 07:24:25 UTC

Post by just us
When we did a 23 day remote walk we got an upholsteror to sew up
very thick canvas which was great but by the end of 3 weeks anywhere where
there was a crease had worn through so even the canvas didnt stand up to it.

I agree with the bit about creases. Yep, always wears through there.

I have taken to making my own gaiters out of 1000 denier coated Cordura for
the bottom bit and uncoated 500 denier Cordura for the upper bit. The design
is such that they don't crease, and they DO last.

Your snake bite is about the first I have heard about in 10 - 15 years. We
see snakes, but they don't want to get involved.

Cheers
Roger Caffin

just us

2006-11-02 08:35:38 UTC

Yes, usually the ones we see just want to get away too. I honestly think the
best advice is regardless of whether you think you are snake proof or not -
just stand still and let them pass :)
Kathy

John Henderson

2006-11-02 08:54:22 UTC

Post by just us
Yes, usually the ones we see just want to get away too. I
honestly think the best advice is regardless of whether you
think you are snake proof or not - just stand still and let
them pass :) Kathy

I would have said stand still or back off very very slowly -
except that the last time I tried to back off very slowly I
stumbled on a rock, overbalanced, and fell down in a screaming
heap in front of the snake.

John

just us

2006-11-02 09:59:04 UTC

LOL John! I actually saw that on the side of a creek up bush one weekend.
The guy was sitting putting on his boots after a crossing and a snake
slithered right over the top of his foot. He stood up, screamed and fell
back into the water! The snake was a python, non venomous, but it was an
extremely funny thing to witness.

j***@mbox.com.au

2006-11-02 13:42:05 UTC

Post by just us
Yes, usually the ones we see just want to get away too. I honestly think the
best advice is regardless of whether you think you are snake proof or not -
just stand still and let them pass :)
Kathy

Good advice, that's what I do after having first jumped backwards about
a metre :)
We seem to encounter snakes more often that I would have expected and
have become somewhat used to them, although very cautious. The
difficulty is in not being able to see one until you are about to tread
on it. If we see one ahead, not moving, have found that thumping the
ground with your foot, a stick etc (from a respectful distance) usually
encourages it to move on.

Kind regards,
John W

(to reply change mbox to bigpond and remove .au)

just us

2006-11-02 10:00:46 UTC

Roger, usually at least one person a year dies of snake bite up here - we
are in Taipan country. There are also many snake bites every year - I nurse
and I see these things

it.
I agree with the bit about creases. Yep, always wears through there.
I have taken to making my own gaiters out of 1000 denier coated Cordura for
the bottom bit and uncoated 500 denier Cordura for the upper bit. The design
is such that they don't crease, and they DO last.
Your snake bite is about the first I have heard about in 10 - 15 years. We
see snakes, but they don't want to get involved.
Cheers
Roger Caffin

Roger Caffin

2006-11-02 20:46:06 UTC

Hi Kathy

Post by just us
Roger, usually at least one person a year dies of snake bite up here - we
are in Taipan country. There are also many snake bites every year - I nurse
and I see these things

Sorry - I meant bushwalkers. Are the snake bite victims you see bushwalkers,
or other people like farmers, teenagers being silly, etc? Genuinely curious.

Cheers
Roger Caffin

just us

2006-11-03 08:17:45 UTC

Thats ok Roger
I meant general public, not bushwalkers. Infact I have never met a
bushwalker who was bitten, so I suppose I was lucky that I wasnt the first
:)
"Kathy

michael t

2006-11-02 09:14:48 UTC

I would argue that the fangs of Australian snakes are short and unlikely to
penetrate most full gaiters?
Anyone want to dispute that?

Roger Caffin

2006-11-02 09:39:03 UTC

Post by michael t
I would argue that the fangs of Australian snakes are short and unlikely to
penetrate most full gaiters?

Well, the situation is actually more complex.
Some snakes have hollow fangs which inject. They can go through fabric.
Some snakes have grooved fangs, and the venom can be stopped by fabric.
Some snakes are older and bigger and have bigger fangs ...

Cheers
Roger Caffin

David

2006-11-03 01:38:51 UTC

Agreed.
From what I remember of First year Uni Australian Biota classes, Australian
snakes don't have hollow fangs (this is very much open to dispute, so please
anyone correct me if this is wrong). Something about Aussie snakes being
quite primitive yadda yadda.
The vennom squirts out the back of the fang along the groove and tends to
just "go everywhere" as opposed to teh hollow fangs that act like
hypodermics. Hence a good fabric layer over your legs should be enough to
save you. Of course may common sense prevail and you treat any snake bite
with caution.
Seen a few snakes around. I've only ever encountered a python up close and
I hope to keep it that way!

David

Post by michael t
I would argue that the fangs of Australian snakes are short and unlikely

Post by michael t
penetrate most full gaiters?

Ken

2006-11-03 02:04:33 UTC

Post by David
Agreed.
From what I remember of First year Uni Australian Biota classes, Australian
snakes don't have hollow fangs (this is very much open to dispute, so please
anyone correct me if this is wrong). Something about Aussie snakes being
quite primitive yadda yadda.
The vennom squirts out the back of the fang along the groove and tends to
just "go everywhere" as opposed to teh hollow fangs that act like
hypodermics. Hence a good fabric layer over your legs should be enough to
save you. Of course may common sense prevail and you treat any snake bite
with caution.
Seen a few snakes around. I've only ever encountered a python up close and
I hope to keep it that way!

Number of people suggest otherwise, including
http://www.amonline.net.au/factSheets/snake_fangs.htm

--
See my photos at http://www.kjbeath.com.au/photos/index.html
Desktop pictures as well.

David

2006-11-03 03:03:41 UTC

Interesting. Just goes to show, don't believe everything you were taught
(or remember) at uni!

Post by Ken

Number of people suggest otherwise, including
http://www.amonline.net.au/factSheets/snake_fangs.htm
--
See my photos at http://www.kjbeath.com.au/photos/index.html
Desktop pictures as well.

David Springthorpe

2006-11-03 04:00:39 UTC

On Fri, 3 Nov 2006 13:33:41 +1030, "David"

Post by David
Interesting. Just goes to show, don't believe everything you were taught
(or remember) at uni!

Or Sunday School.....

Tom Hulse

2006-11-02 10:03:45 UTC

Post by michael t
I would argue that the fangs of Australian snakes are short and unlikely
to penetrate most full gaiters?
Anyone want to dispute that?

Probably should put 'most' in front of Australian. The Coastal (Eastern)
Taipan has a fang size between 8 & 12mm , but yes, from what I read most of
Australia's snakes have relatively short fangs at the front of the upper
jaws. The average fang size of a Brown Snake is 2.8mm, while that of a
Copperhead is 3.3mm, Tiger Snake 3.5mm, Red-bellied Black 4.0mm. All longer
than Cordura is thick.
Unlikely? that's a known unknown. Would depend on power and angle of strike
plus how close the gaiter fabric is to your skin at the strike point I
suppose. I doubt if the thickness of the material would matter all that
much, other than its stiffness holding the fabric away from your skin. A
layer of 10mm foam glued to inside the gaiter would also keep it away from
your skin.

Tom

Tom Hulse

2006-11-02 10:16:21 UTC

Post by Tom Hulse

Post by michael t
I would argue that the fangs of Australian snakes are short and unlikely
to penetrate most full gaiters?
Anyone want to dispute that?

The average fang size of a Brown Snake is 2.8mm, while that of a

Post by Tom Hulse
Copperhead is 3.3mm, Tiger Snake 3.5mm, Red-bellied Black 4.0mm.

Michael, I hope you appreciate what I had to do to check your claim. The end
of my ruler is all splintered and wet; I'll have to put in for a new one.
And another box of Band-Aids.

Tom

norts

2006-11-02 22:10:05 UTC

Post by Tom Hulse

Post by michael t
I would argue that the fangs of Australian snakes are short and unlikely
to penetrate most full gaiters?
Anyone want to dispute that?

The average fang size of a Brown Snake is 2.8mm, while that of a

Post by Tom Hulse
Copperhead is 3.3mm, Tiger Snake 3.5mm, Red-bellied Black 4.0mm.

Michael, I hope you appreciate what I had to do to check your claim. The end
of my ruler is all splintered and wet; I'll have to put in for a new one.
And another box of Band-Aids.
Tom

I always wear gaiters but when the snakes sit on top of button grass
clump and it is about shoulder high it can give you a real fright. I
fell over backwards on to the other side of the track, it was on the
South Coast track going up Red Point Hills. My walking partner just
laughed.

Norts

Nsky

2006-11-03 05:53:53 UTC

Errrr.....May I ask a stupid question : why do wear gaiters? I have
done HEAPS of bushbashing in my time in many areas around Sydney
including your favorite haunts Anthony and including daywalks and
overnight in all seasons and have never had the need for gaiters. OK
I'll come home with a few scratches on my legs but being of the male
persuasion this is not a concern. Apart from good looks can you offer
any valid reason to wear them.

Michael C.

2006-11-03 05:58:14 UTC

Apart from good looks can you offer any valid reason to wear them.

Thanks for asking this question Nsky ... I too have always been stumped
as to why you would want/need (?) to wear such bulky things around your
legs.

Coming from Qld, it seems it would be way too hot most of the time -
even in our winters?!

Can someone please explain ...

Mick

Tamyka Bell

2006-11-03 07:13:29 UTC

Post by Michael C.

Apart from good looks can you offer any valid reason to wear them.

Thanks for asking this question Nsky ... I too have always been stumped
as to why you would want/need (?) to wear such bulky things around your
legs.
Coming from Qld, it seems it would be way too hot most of the time -
even in our winters?!
Can someone please explain ...
Mick

I used to mock gaiters and I'm still not keen on those big
ones, but I tried the little canvas work gaiters before a
trail run a while ago and they stopped the grit getting in
the top of my shoes. I've since taken to wearing lycra ankle
gaiters that hook over my laces and velcro-attach around the
shoe, they work a treat, are lightweight and don't get in
the way. I've never had a problem with getting grit in my
shoes when walking though.

I think the big ones also provide some defence against wet
and bog, but may be mistaken.

Tam

Roger Caffin

2006-11-03 07:41:37 UTC

Post by Tamyka Bell
I used to mock gaiters and I'm still not keen on those big
ones, but I tried the little canvas work gaiters before a
trail run a while ago and they stopped the grit getting in
the top of my shoes.

Great for river walking when your feet are in the water. They do keep the
sand out.

Post by Tamyka Bell
I think the big ones also provide some defence against wet
and bog, but may be mistaken.

The original idea was as protection against snakes, but these days we wear
them as protection against the scrub and lawyer vines. Seriously!

The old canvas ones are too hot - agree. I make ours out of uncoated 500
denier Cordura - tough stuff, and breathes really well.

But ... ymmv.

Cheers
Roger Caffin

Terryc

2006-11-03 23:58:30 UTC

Post by Roger Caffin
The old canvas ones are too hot - agree. I make ours out of uncoated 500
denier Cordura - tough stuff, and breathes really well.

Where do you buy your cordura?

Last time I purchased any it came in 8oz or 12oz {:-).

Roger Caffin

2006-11-04 10:13:28 UTC

Post by Terryc
Where do you buy your cordura?

Some sources are listed in the FAQ under DIY.
Alternately, try any local gear manufacturers (and hope!).

Cheers
Roger Caffin
www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/

Terryc

2006-11-04 14:46:52 UTC

Post by Terryc
Where do you buy your cordura?

Some sources are listed in the FAQ under DIY.

Thanks.

Post by Roger Caffin
Alternately, try any local gear manufacturers (and hope!).

Naah, they usually want you to pay them a high surcharge.
I'll start drawing up my list and see if a family member can get it
wholesale.

Roger Caffin

2006-11-04 20:24:37 UTC

Post by Terryc
Where do you buy your cordura?

Some sources are listed in the FAQ under DIY.

The coated Cordura is more obtainable than the uncoated. You might have to
go to one of the American sources for the latter. OWFINC or Top Value
Fabrics maybe.

Cheers
Roger Caffin

Peter W

2006-11-07 05:53:02 UTC

Post by Michael C.

Apart from good looks can you offer any valid reason to wear them.

I think that would be a valid reason to not wear them.

Post by Michael C.
Coming from Qld, it seems it would be way too hot most of the time -
even in our winters?!

I never really understood it either, then I did a few days in the Main
Range rainforest and scrub. I ended up with really badly scratched
legs. A lot of situations don't call for them - most of Mt Barney
doesn't really require gaiters for example (although they might be nice
on some routes). Some other parts of SE Qld are rather prickly and I
would definitely recommend them - but then again, maybe I'm just soft.

Peter

just us

2006-11-03 08:23:36 UTC

Wouldnt be without my gaiters - mainly worn because up here we have
speargrass which not only gets on your socks but in your skin as well.
Usually about 2 weeks later when a fester appears you think to yourself
"sheesh if only I had worn the gaiters" . Also up here we do wear them for
some protection from snakes, yes they may strike and go through the gaiter,
but I had one close shave and so I am a "gaiter convert". Another reason
is - if you are on a 10 day hike and for the first 5 days you get pandanus
prongs stuck in your skin the next five days are pure hell! Not only
pandanus prickles, but just endless scratches over an extended hike can be
very painful.
I go for day walks and get covered in scratches - so what they soon heal. I
go for extended hikes and I like to cover up, whether hot or not.
Kathy

Ken

2006-11-03 08:39:43 UTC

I find that if I'm wearing them, I don't have close encounters with
snakes.

--
See my photos at http://www.kjbeath.com.au/photos/index.html
Desktop pictures as well.

Kubalister

2006-11-04 04:42:38 UTC

Post by Ken

I find that if I'm wearing them, I don't have close encounters with
snakes.

Yes, very true. It's like having a gore-tex jacket in your pack. As long
as you have one it doesn't rain....

a***@gmail.com

2006-11-06 10:48:35 UTC

It makes for interesting stories coming in to work on Monday with cuts
and scratches all over your shins, but sometimes the scrub is just so
bad its not worth the pain.

Anthony.

Nsky

2006-11-06 21:19:13 UTC

Post by a***@gmail.com
It makes for interesting stories coming in to work on Monday with cuts
and scratches all over your shins, but sometimes the scrub is just so
bad its not worth the pain.

I suppose the average Aussie male bushwalker is just getting a bit more
dainty than I had thought. I must say I rarely see others wearing
gaiters. None in my circle wear them. Those that we do come across
wearing them tend to be a bit more novice.

BTW did you attend your climate change rally on Saturday in Sydney?
12,000 - pretty feeble turnout.

David Springthorpe

2006-11-06 23:33:00 UTC

Post by Nsky
I suppose the average Aussie male bushwalker is just getting a bit more
dainty than I had thought. I must say I rarely see others wearing
gaiters. None in my circle wear them. Those that we do come across
wearing them tend to be a bit more novice.

My general experience is totally the opposite.

Post by Nsky
BTW did you attend your climate change rally on Saturday in Sydney?
12,000 - pretty feeble turnout.

Direct relevance to the subject of the wearing of gaiters ?

Terryc

2006-11-06 23:52:24 UTC

Post by Nsky
I suppose the average Aussie male bushwalker is just getting a bit more
dainty than I had thought. I must say I rarely see others wearing
gaiters.

Yep, I dont see too many snakes frequenting Caffee Lattee either, unless
you are talking about the trouser variety.

Post by Nsky
BTW did you attend your climate change rally on Saturday in Sydney?
12,000 - pretty feeble turnout.

Not at all. Obviously the number of forward thinking people in Sydney
has shrunk.

norts

2006-11-07 04:39:52 UTC

Post by a***@gmail.com
It makes for interesting stories coming in to work on Monday with cuts
and scratches all over your shins, but sometimes the scrub is just so
bad its not worth the pain.

I suppose the average Aussie male bushwalker is just getting a bit more
dainty than I had thought. I must say I rarely see others wearing
gaiters. None in my circle wear them. Those that we do come across
wearing them tend to be a bit more novice.
BTW did you attend your climate change rally on Saturday in Sydney?
12,000 - pretty feeble turnout.

It sounds like you have not done much walking in S/W Tassie. Gaiters
are great for mud, snow and wading small creeks. You would be classed
as a novice if you were not wearing gaiters by most walkers you
encountered down here.
As far as getting dainty, have a look at some old photos (Tassies
ones), late 1800s and early 1900s, they use to wear puttees. and those
blokes were not dainty.

Roger

Roger

a***@gmail.com

2006-11-07 08:13:32 UTC

Each to their own. I used to walk through the scrub or wait-a-while
vines with no leg protection when I started bushwalking, but these days
I try to wear some sort of leg covering if I'm going somewhere where I
know I'll get my shins sliced to pieces otherwise. Personal choice.

Post by Nsky
BTW did you attend your climate change rally on Saturday in Sydney?
12,000 - pretty feeble turnout.

Unfortunately no. I had planned to but family commitments got in the
way. The turn out in Sydney would have been bigger if it hadn't rained.
Bummer about that.

Anthony.

Allan Mikkelsen

2006-11-07 12:44:32 UTC

Post by a***@gmail.com
It makes for interesting stories coming in to work on Monday with cuts
and scratches all over your shins, but sometimes the scrub is just so
bad its not worth the pain.

My experience partly agrees with yours.

Many novices start with gaiters and even wear them on simple track walks.

Then they graduate to rough tracks or light scrub, and in a show of
bravado, discard the gaiters, beat their chests, and proclaim "I am a
macho man".

Some of these then even graduate to real bushwalks through real scrub and
then realise the value of gaiters in some circumstances.

I assume "your circle" are still in the second stage.

just us

2006-11-08 04:41:51 UTC

LOL - sheesh after 15 plus years of very serious bushwalking I think most of
my fellow walkers would shudder at the thought of calling me "dainty"
Tracks??? what are they? NSKY I think you better come north mate - check out
the daintiness! I noticed also that NSKY forgot to mention the female
bushwalker in the equation - scary how some "men" are totally in awe of them
so they prefer to omit us from the "dainty" talk.
Kathy (wears gaiters and proud of it - dainty indeed LOL)

Roger Caffin

2006-11-08 07:27:03 UTC

Post by just us
Kathy (wears gaiters and proud of it - dainty indeed LOL)

Don't get Kathy's husband upset: he'll throw coconuts at you (too).

Cheers
Roger

d***@gmail.com

2006-11-10 23:03:07 UTC

Post by Nsky
I must say I rarely see others wearing
gaiters. None in my circle wear them. Those that we do come across
wearing them tend to be a bit more novice.

You've obviously never bashed through trackless scrub for a few days...
What really makes me wonder tho is those geezers with the expensive
telescopic walking poles.

Here is an interesting blog article i found a few weeks ago.
I was actually thinking about emailing this one to you Roger.

"Jason Poole, a superb adventure racer and ultrarunner from Colorado,
got a nasty surprise at the World Rogaining Championships in New South
Wales, Australia, this month. About two and a half hours into the
24-hour race, he was bitten by an Australian brown snake, one of the
deadliest snakes on that continent full of deadly critters. Poole and
his teammate, Adam Chase, hiked several miles to the road and made it
to the hospital, where he was pumped full of meds and saved. Poole was
wearing gaiters and apparently only one of the snake's fangs punctured
his skin-doctors said that if both fangs had penetrated his ankle,
Poole never would have made it out of the bush."

The source is: http://themountainworld.blogspot.com/
Scroll down to the post made on, Sun Oct 29 2006...

Like a helmet in rock climbing...
Gaiters won't make you invincible, but will give you better odds when
you really want it.
That and they (both helmet and gaiters) work really well as a battering
ram in thick undergrowth.

Cheers
Dan Roe

John Atkinson

2006-11-15 02:43:56 UTC

Thereby pumping the venom all through his body. Obviously hadn't been
reading the recommended treatment for snakebite eh?

J.

Scott Hamilton

2006-11-19 22:37:46 UTC

Post by d***@gmail.com
"Jason Poole, a superb adventure racer and ultrarunner from Colorado,
got a nasty surprise at the World Rogaining Championships in New South
Wales, Australia, this month. About two and a half hours into the
24-hour race, he was bitten by an Australian brown snake, one of the
deadliest snakes on that continent full of deadly critters. Poole and
his teammate, Adam Chase, hiked several miles to the road and made it
to the hospital, where he was pumped full of meds and saved. Poole was
wearing gaiters and apparently only one of the snake's fangs punctured
his skin-doctors said that if both fangs had penetrated his ankle,
Poole never would have made it out of the bush."
The source is:http://themountainworld.blogspot.com/

He now has the title of first rogainer to be bitten by a snake. I spoke
to him briefly after he returned from hospital. He was bitten on that
bony part of the angle. He didn't see the snake before or after the
bite. The hospital did blood tests to identify the type of snake. I
think the gaiters he was wearing was the thin orienteering type. I
could be wrong on that though.

Scott

d***@gmail.com

2006-12-08 12:38:50 UTC

Just a thought on the snake proof gaitors - I wonder if it would be
useful to line them with (metal) fly screen mesh - creating a sort of
chain mail effect. The mesh would have to be under a layer of cloth
material to prevent snagging. It might be stiff, but for the ankle to
below the knee shouldn't matter too much. I imagine the mesh gaps would
be smaller than a snake fang diameter, and that the jaws would not
crush strongly enough to break the mesh.

Any thoughts anyone? Roger?

Doric

Roger Caffin

2006-12-08 21:16:05 UTC