Time to turn my back on Goretex?

[RockyRoad]

Bought a PaddyPallin Vista raincoat in 1996 not long after I got into
bushwalking (about $320 back then). It got stolen from my car out the
front of my house in 2000.

Bought another Vista (about $400 this time). Well this one has
permanently disappeared after taking it to a nightime band rehearsal on
a rainy night in Dummoyne earlier in the year. Darn it.

These things are now listed at $570. I'm aware that Goretex shells are
not light and the thought of my rain needs costing me around $1300 in
less then ten years has got me wondering if I should be thinking of
something less "serious" and lighter, and less expensive - those two
previous raincoats were bought before I had small children to feed!

I walk in NSW. Predominantly in places like the Budawangs, The Royal,
Heathcote NP and Blue Mtns. There was one day in winter where I walked
from Mt Cole out to WogWog in torrential rain for the entire day and I
was thankful for a good raincoat but that has not been the norm, and
usually it is 830grams sitting in my backpack.

Anyone that's "downgraded" want to share with me what you use now?

Rocky.

[Book]

|
| Anyone that's "downgraded" want to share with me what you use now?
|
| Rocky.
|
| --
| Rocky Road - in Oz

I've got a Mont Austral- cost me $299. Used it in torrential rain and cold,
windy conditions in NZ recently- performed flawlessly. No different to
goretex as far as I could tell- just cheaper.

Sean

http://www.pbase.com/bookster/bushwalking

[Peter Signorini]

Post by Book
I've got a Mont Austral- cost me $299. Used it in torrential rain and cold,
windy conditions in NZ recently- performed flawlessly. No different to
goretex as far as I could tell- just cheaper.

Was just going to mention Mont myself. I've got a Mont Hammerhead that I use
for cycle-touring and xc skiing. It cost me $380 about 3 years ago, and
their hydranaute fabric is I believe a Goretex copy. Seems to work just as
well.

The cost difference for real Goretex is a big penalty nowadays, and Paddy
Pallin may also be manufacturing in Australia which sadly gives a further
cost penalty. Mont is made in Fiji, WE have gone to Vietnam, Macpac has also
based its manufacturing overseas somewhere (ie. not NZ)

Cheers
Peter

[Roger Caffin]

Post by Peter Signorini
Was just going to mention Mont myself. I've got a Mont Hammerhead that I use
for cycle-touring and xc skiing. It cost me $380 about 3 years ago, and
their hydranaute fabric is I believe a Goretex copy. Seems to work just as
well.

Very doubtful. The appearance is quite different, and the Gore patents were
holding up very well until just a couple of years ago. The only copy of
Goretex that I know of is eVent (is correct spelling), which only started
marketing a year or two ago when the Gore patents expired.

I do not know of any real alternatives to PU unless you go to silnylon
(non-breathing) or Epic (soft shell). And current Goretex relies on a PU
coating as the main barrier anyhow.

Cheers
Roger Caffin

[Peter Signorini]

Post by Roger Caffin
I do not know of any real alternatives to PU unless you go to silnylon
(non-breathing) or Epic (soft shell). And current Goretex relies on a PU
coating as the main barrier anyhow.

Ahh! Sounded odd to me and after a bit of googling it's clear. The main
laminate in Goretex is PTFE of course, an expanded teflon. Not sure about
the role of PU here.

Cheers
Peter

[Roger Caffin]

Hi Peter

Post by Peter Signorini
Ahh! Sounded odd to me and after a bit of googling it's clear. The main
laminate in Goretex is PTFE of course, an expanded teflon. Not sure about
the role of PU here.

Well, that's the dark and dirty secret about Goretex. Yes, they do have a
Teflon laminate in there, but it does NOT do the work. They are very coy
about this. But see
www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Rainwear.htm#Materials
for the details. Several paragraphs down.

Cheers
Roger Caffin

[Dzung Nguyen <""@melbpc.org.au>]

Post by Peter Signorini

Post by Book
I've got a Mont Austral- cost me $299. Used it in torrential rain and cold,
windy conditions in NZ recently- performed flawlessly. No different to
goretex as far as I could tell- just cheaper.

Was just going to mention Mont myself. I've got a Mont Hammerhead that I use
for cycle-touring and xc skiing. It cost me $380 about 3 years ago, and
their hydranaute fabric is I believe a Goretex copy. Seems to work just as
well.
The cost difference for real Goretex is a big penalty nowadays, and Paddy
Pallin may also be manufacturing in Australia which sadly gives a further
cost penalty. Mont is made in Fiji, WE have gone to Vietnam, Macpac has also
based its manufacturing overseas somewhere (ie. not NZ)
Cheers
Peter

Just to remind me of some nights ago when I was in a bookshop
cafe a lady came up to me making some enquiries about my day pack WE
Flashback that was made in VietNam and i have had it for a while.
It's a heavy duty pack. A4 files/folders fit in it. The fabric is
waterproof, breathable and durable. The reflector is a great help for
night cycling. Dz

[Roger Caffin]

Post by RockyRoad
Anyone that's "downgraded" want to share with me what you use now?

For very wet cold weather - Peter Storm
For snow conditions, an Epic jacket I made myself
For light drizzle in warm weather, a shirt, and walk fast.
Never regretted the change.

See www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ under Rainwear (you knew I was going to say
that, didn't you?)

My old, expensive, heavy and leaky! Goretex sits at home, useless.

Cheers
Roger Caffin

[David Morrison]

Post by RockyRoad
Anyone that's "downgraded" want to share with me what you use now?

I'm based in Newcastle, and walk in similar conditions to you. Started off many
years ago with a dry japara coat. It was not too bad, except that after a while
in the rain, the water would "rub" through the fabric, eg, under shoulder
straps. It never got to drips, but the clothing underneath ended up damp.

About 10 years ago, I bought the low end Mont Goretex jacket. It was under $200,
and did not have all the bells and whistles - just a basic coat - and weighed
less than the ones with map pockets, articulated sleeves, etc.

Now with both of these, I found that I sweated much more than the fabric could
let the moisture escape. I usually ended up soaked. Especially on the humid
coastal areas of NSW.

[As I understand it, Goretex relies on the humidity inside being higher than
outside to expel the moisture. In snow or very cold conditions, it is very
effective. When it is raining, however, the humidity outside is usually pretty
close to 100%, so there is not much incentive for moisture inside to go out. For
that matter, the layer of water on the outside would be a pretty effective
barrier. (Yes, I know it is supposed to bead the water, but even Gore's very
expensive re-waterproofing spray did not help much.)]

And besides, that none of the coats are long enough, and the water dribbles off
the coat onto my shorts, or onto my legs and wicks its way up to wet my shorts.

So about 9.5 years ago, I made myself a cape. Get a rectangle of coated nylon
about 2m x 1m (work out what size suits you). Cut a small crescent out of the
middle of one of the long sides for your neck, and attach clips or velcro to
join both ends of this edge together. Most important, waterproof it before use.
Otherwise it mops up the water that falls on it and gets quite heavy.
Waterproofing makes the water bead and run off.

Advantages:

* Depending on the clips you use, can be quite light.

* Cost about $5 plus a bit of time with a sewing machine hemming it and putting
the clips on.

* Plenty of ventilation so no condensation.

* Goes over your pack so it stays dry.

* Because it is over your pack, water drips off rather than running onto your
legs at the back. At the front, you can push it out with your hands to keep the
water from dripping on your legs.

* Your hands stay dry.

* It does not catch on the scrub. Seems to just billow around.

* Could use it as a ground sheet, although I haven't - didn't want any holes!

* Can perch underneath it in the rain for comfortable lunch.

Disadvantages:

* Does blow about if windy#. No good to keep you warm in windy conditions.

* The urethane coating will start to peel off around the neck after about 10
years and you will have to make youself another.

* If you are going through low wet scrub, you may get a little wetter than
wearing a coat. Depends on the scrub.


# But in one rather wet and windy climb up Mt Bogong to Cleve Cole hut, I was
much drier overall at the end than the people wearing coats. My shorts were
fairly wet, but my top was dry. They were damp all over.

Cheers

David

[figjam62]

Post by David Morrison
close to 100%, so there is not much incentive for moisture inside to go out. For
that matter, the layer of water on the outside would be a pretty effective
barrier. (Yes, I know it is supposed to bead the water, but even Gore's very
expensive re-waterproofing spray did not help much.)]

Agreed. I found that modern Goretex material loses its' beading ability a
lot
faster than GTex from around 10+ years ago/
And Revivex certainly seems to be a waste of $.
Still a good iron or hot drier run will help a bit, but on day 2 or 3 it
will start to wet through, and of course then you're pretty much 'lost to
the wet' from barrier to evap.
You can leave it quite open at the neck, wrists right open etc, and with a
bit of wind this is better, but still annoying getting the coat off, and not
being able to nearly fry it by giving it a simple shake.
My original Gtex started to delam on the hood after a few years, so took it
back to PP, and they gave me a new one (I thought better model at the time),
but it never did bead like that original.
If I had any idea of this, I would have gladly kept the old one, with very
good beading quality (now some farmer in Nambia or somewhere has a very good
beading coat I expect).

Post by David Morrison
So about 9.5 years ago, I made myself a cape. Get a rectangle of coated nylon
about 2m x 1m (work out what size suits you). Cut a small crescent out of the
middle of one of the long sides for your neck, and attach clips or velcro to
join both ends of this edge together. Most important, waterproof it before use.
Otherwise it mops up the water that falls on it and gets quite heavy.
Waterproofing makes the water bead and run off.

Good option is many cases, certainly in humid conditions.
Most outdoor shops have fairly light ponchos, and I have always thought that
taking one as a pattern, and using a good light material like Silnylon (or
other Roger ?), then you could have a very viable option. It would be great
to build in some room at the back for a pack under the poncho too, if anyone
is thinking about making one.

Post by David Morrison
* Does blow about if windy#. No good to keep you warm in windy conditions.

Yeah : )
I started walking with ponchos maybe 15 years ago (yes, I am very tired, ha
ha), and the $15 ones from Aussie Disposals etc worked pretty well.
Actually I bought 12 or so of these, and used them in inclement weather
taking punters out on day walks, though only needed them a few times in 3
years, they worked fine and no one ever got very inconvenienced by the
design or level of protection etc.
I remember on (private) trip on the Heysen Trail (perhaps 400k's into it), I
tried a bloody big German army poncho (was a lot more h/duty AND heavy, but
wanted to try it as a bivvy too) on a range in the mid north, crossing
stiles with a _very_ brisk breeze, it was like a sail, and nearly lost it
several times. (Bought my first GTex shortly after.)
I recall walking that with light fleece on under the poncho, and worked
quite
well (we had rain and hail).

Thinking about it, could a good size suitable material poncho be utilised as
a bivvy ?
I recall a website somewhere was selling these, found from a link in the ng
some years ago.
Maybe with some good design work, it could be a very useful concept for many
locations.

Here're a few links just googled (ponch bivvy).
Exped
http://tinyurl.com/7cepe
http://www.backcountry-equipment.com/clothing/exped_poncho.html
Ortovox
http://www.backpacker.com/gear/article/0,1023,2282,00.html

Couldn't quickly find anything on BackpackGearTest site.

Regards,
Les

[figjam62]

Post by figjam62
being able to nearly fry it by giving it a simple shake.

Blasted 'd' and 'f'' keys !
Oh, now that I mention fry, don't wear Gtex near smoke !
Surest way to screw the dwr coating.

[David Springthorpe]

Post by figjam62
Blasted 'd' and 'f'' keys !

Could prove embarrassing if talking about ducks.....

DS

[Trevor_S]

Post by figjam62

Post by figjam62
being able to nearly fry it by giving it a simple shake.

Blasted 'd' and 'f'' keys !
Oh, now that I mention fry, don't wear Gtex near smoke !

I just assumed on one walk you forgot food and ate the cape after saute'ing
it :)

[figjam62]

Post by Trevor_S

Post by figjam62

Post by figjam62
being able to nearly fry it by giving it a simple shake.

Blasted 'd' and 'f'' keys !
Oh, now that I mention fry, don't wear Gtex near smoke !

I just assumed on one walk you forgot food and ate the cape after saute'ing
it :)
--
Trevor S
"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth."
-Albert Einstein

Mmmm, could be better than some of the less memorable meals I've had in the
bush ! : )
Only a couple fortunately.

[Roger Caffin]

Post by figjam62
Most outdoor shops have fairly light ponchos, and I have always thought that
taking one as a pattern, and using a good light material like Silnylon (or
other Roger ?), then you could have a very viable option. It would be great
to build in some room at the back for a pack under the poncho too, if anyone
is thinking about making one.

Standard in Europe. Few walkers we saw had parkas - very much an
Australian/American thing. The Europeans all wear ponchos and capes. See the
FAQ at
http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Rainwear.htm#Poncho
for more comments about this.

Technically, if using the European terms, a poncho is just a flat sheet with
a head hole and a hood. It might have press-studs down the sides. A cape is
a tailored poncho, sewn down the sides and with some loose idea of sleeves.
Then there is the Packa, a cross between a poncho and a parka. See the next
bit of the FAQ or www.thepacka.com for more info about this.

I made myself a cross between a Packa and a cape out of silnylon. VERY
similar to the Packa in fact, just looser all around. Very convenient, and I
took it to Spain last year for 8 weeks. It covers my pack all the time, and
can be a poncho or a cape or a parka for me, depending on the weather. I
don't have to use the sleeves if I don't need to. In fact, I have walked
along in light rain with it over me and my pack, cape style, with my hands
in my pockets and lots of air flowing around underneath. No sweat. And it
can be pushed back onto the pack off me completely if the sun comes out -
without my having to stop.

That's the problem with parkas. You have to remove your pack to put it on or
take it off. Real drag. That, and the sweat down the back.

Post by figjam62

Post by David Morrison
* Does blow about if windy#. No good to keep you warm in windy conditions.

Well, the Packa doesn't do too badly. If you do it up, it's close to a
parka.

Post by figjam62
Thinking about it, could a good size suitable material poncho be utilised as
a bivvy ?

Yeah, some USA companies promote this idea. But they are counting on light
showers maybe once a month. Give me a tent!

Cheers
Roger Caffin

[David Morrison]

Post by Roger Caffin
Technically, if using the European terms, a poncho is just a flat sheet with
a head hole and a hood. It might have press-studs down the sides. A cape is
a tailored poncho, sewn down the sides and with some loose idea of sleeves.
Then there is the Packa, a cross between a poncho and a parka. See the next
bit of the FAQ or www.thepacka.com for more info about this.

Interesting. This is not what I made and not what I would describe as a cape.
The Oxford dictionary defines a cape as a "short sleeveless cloak", so anything
with "sleeves" would appear to be something else.

I think of a cape as something you tie around your neck, perhaps with fastenings
down the front.

Here is a diagram - you probably need to look at it in a fixed pitch font:

---------------------------------------------------------
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| ---- |
---------------*-----*----*/ ^ \*----*-----*------------
|
* = clips neck

Length 213cm, Width 134cm

I usually grab either side of the neck hole and flip it over my head and pack,
then do up the clips which are now at the front. Yes, I do look a bit of a
hunchback, but it is very functional as I described before.

Now the diagram above is very basic. I added a collar around the neck hole to
stop water running down my neck if my pack is very high (rarely). I also added
an internal flap to one side of the front to make it a little more resistant to
water entering from the front.

A big advantage over a poncho is that there is no hole in the middle. One
mistake I did make was to use steel press-studs for the clips, which are quite
heavy, especially since it tends to bunch up at the front if you have a big
pack, so you need a few of them. Next time it is velcro or plastic clips!

With a weekend pack, I find the "tails" are well above the ground. With a day
pack, they get pretty close to the ground. If they drag on the ground, this is
dangerous, so the actual size to make it is determined by how close the tails
are to the ground. This depends on your height and how bulky your smallest pack
is.

Cheers

David

[Evan BAILEY]

This discusion leads me to my old PaddyPallin cape/groundsheet...
I do not know if these are still being sold, but I still have a combined
groundsheet / cape, made by Paddy Pallins c. 30 yrs ago.
It is robust (heavy) , with industrial strength press studs down the sides
so that you can button it up around your neck, and have a (sleeveless)
waterproof cape down to yr knees and back over yr pack etc.
Problems are:
weight -- it is quite heavy for a cape, or compared to a waterproof pack
cover;
in strong winds it can billow up etc.
BUT it still makes a good groundsheet! (assuming that you have an old tent
without built in floor etc!)

EvanB ex-Leura

Post by David Morrison

Post by Roger Caffin
Technically, if using the European terms, a poncho is just a flat sheet with
a head hole and a hood. It might have press-studs down the sides. A cape is
a tailored poncho, sewn down the sides and with some loose idea of sleeves.
Then there is the Packa, a cross between a poncho and a parka. See the next
bit of the FAQ or www.thepacka.com for more info about this.

Interesting. This is not what I made and not what I would describe as a cape.
The Oxford dictionary defines a cape as a "short sleeveless cloak", so anything
with "sleeves" would appear to be something else.
I think of a cape as something you tie around your neck, perhaps with fastenings
down the front.
---------------------------------------------------------
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| |
| ---- |
---------------*-----*----*/ ^ \*----*-----*------------
|
* = clips neck
Length 213cm, Width 134cm
I usually grab either side of the neck hole and flip it over my head and pack,
then do up the clips which are now at the front. Yes, I do look a bit of a
hunchback, but it is very functional as I described before.
Now the diagram above is very basic. I added a collar around the neck hole to
stop water running down my neck if my pack is very high (rarely). I also added
an internal flap to one side of the front to make it a little more resistant to
water entering from the front.
A big advantage over a poncho is that there is no hole in the middle. One
mistake I did make was to use steel press-studs for the clips, which are quite
heavy, especially since it tends to bunch up at the front if you have a big
pack, so you need a few of them. Next time it is velcro or plastic clips!
With a weekend pack, I find the "tails" are well above the ground. With a day
pack, they get pretty close to the ground. If they drag on the ground, this is
dangerous, so the actual size to make it is determined by how close the tails
are to the ground. This depends on your height and how bulky your smallest pack
is.
Cheers
David

[Andrew]

Go the garbage bag....three holes and you're done :-)

Andrew

[Roger Norton]

My vote is for the Oringi Grampian. I do all my walking down here in cold
but not wet(lately) Tassie.
Just throw it in the washing machine when it gets dirty.
If you ask for a catalogue they send a piece of the material as well. It's
very tough.
http://www.oringi.co.nz

Norts

[figjam62]

Post by Roger Norton
My vote is for the Oringi Grampian. I do all my walking down here in cold
but not wet(lately) Tassie.
Just throw it in the washing machine when it gets dirty.
If you ask for a catalogue they send a piece of the material as well. It's
very tough.
http://www.oringi.co.nz
Norts

Norts, couldn't locate that on their website, even with a search, can you
pinpoint link ?

[Roger Norton]

You go to the home page and click on leisure, it is also a link.then keep
clicking on leisure at each new page.
a direct link below

Norts

http://www.oringi.co.nz/products_online.asp?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Enetshop%2Eco%2Enz%2Fstores%5Fapp%2FBrowse%5Fdept%5Fitems%2Easp%3FShopper%5Fid%3D971523193523971%26Store%5Fid%3D137%26Page%5Fid%3D17%26categ%5Fid%3D2%26parent%5Fids%3D0&Shopper_id=971523193523971&Store_id=137

[figjam62]

Post by Roger Norton
You go to the home page and click on leisure, it is also a link.then keep
clicking on leisure at each new page.
a direct link below
Norts

http://www.oringi.co.nz/products_online.asp?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Enetshop%2Eco%2Enz%2Fstores%5Fapp%2FBrowse%5Fdept%5Fitems%2Easp%3FShopper%5Fid%3D971523193523971%26Store%5Fid%3D137%26Page%5Fid%3D17%26categ%5Fid%3D2%26parent%5Fids%3D0&Shopper_id=971523193523971&Store_id=137
Ta.
Actually that link goes back a couple of windows.
From the point in the link above, click Leisure,
then Bushwalking Designs.

Strange website, the search doesn't even recognise the full name
of Grampian/Milford, or the product code 4272

Anyhow . . . Flexothane = Breathable ?

(and) still, a full jacket.

I am intrigued a bit at this concept of trying a poncho again, when I
finally give up on my current Gtex.
These lightweight materials, combined with perhaps some dual functionality
would suit many places I walk.

Maybe a tarp tent for over a bivvy sack, or even walks as a dew fly for the
north (of SA).
Of course in rain, it could also eliminate a pack cover, for those that
choose to use these.

[bibtracker]

The latest issue of Outdoor magazine has a pic (P83 if you're sneaking
a shufti in the newsagent) of the
Sea to Summit Tarp Poncho.
It says this siliconised nylon garment easily covers your pack and
converts to a small tarp.
Not the most sylish garment, but at 288 grams it's light enough.
Bit pricey, though: $119.

[Shane White]

Norts - I received their catalogue and some flexothane material.

Their bushwalking jacket just covers the knees so it's very long. In
comparison, my Paddy Pallin Vista finishes 50mm above my knees (which I
think is just right).

So the Oringi Grampian covers the knee caps which makes me think why
bother with rain pants then. Most the pants are sheltered within this
jacket. But I don't want water running down my shins in to my boots. I
also don't an increased sauna effect by covering more of my body in
dual waterproof layers (jacket + pants).

I think the Grampian jacket might be great if I had waterproof shins
(ie like waterprrof sleeves I could slip over each of my lower legs),
but with rain pants I think the jacket might be a bit long. The back
length of their jacket is 105cm, the Vista is 100cm. Then again, I
suppose the jacket provides shelter for the legs.

Also wonder about the breathability of flexothane. No comparison made
to Goretex in their catalogue and no breathability units provided.
Shining a light through the material didn't raise hopes either.

What do you think Norts since you use one? Oh and most importantly, and
what colour :-)

Thanks,
Shane.

[Roger Norton]

Shane, firstly the most important, colour - I have jade and navy
Shins getting wet - I always walk in gaiters - your knee caps get wet.
Since I have had this coat I have never walked in waterproof pants.
I do have ducks disease, so there isn't much leg exposed when I have gaiters
and the long coat.
Crossing the Ironbounds in March I did notice that the inside bottom few
inches of the coat was wet when I got to Little Deadmans.
I am not sure about breathability compared to goretex.
The reason I went for this coat over a goretex is that flexothane is so
strong, I do not worry, when I am pushing through bush that it will rip. If
it snags it stops me going ahead instead of ripping.
The other things I like - throw it in the washing machine to clean and
cheaper than goretex.

I dont like the cheap cord they use in the hood and waist. Hood is a bit
basic but works ok. Pockets need drain holes, hard to dry out after washing

A word on sizing I am only 168cm but I got the large. Wouldn't have wanted
anything smaller.

Hope that helps Shane

Norts

[Shane White]

Thanks Norts.
I'm not sure still - I suspect that the jacket is a bit too long and am
thinking about trying their rain pants with a shorter jacket than the
vista from somewhere. That way I will have to use the rain pants more
often but will have less overlapping waterproof material - ie long
jacket over pants. Because I don't like gaiters (my feet run very hot),
I use a Vista plus rain pants and that makes for a lot of overlap.
Perhaps Flexothane rain pants plus an alpine instead of bushwalking
jacket could be the go. Better for Nepal too! Feels a bit silly in some
places with a big long vista jacket. Having warm nads is nice too
though I suppose....

[Nick]

GORE-TEX jackets are available in OZ now starting at $299, admittedley
these are 2-layer garments and suitable for lighter use, however Paddy
Pallin sell a jacket by the name of the Vital. It's 3-layer, so
suitable for use in the bush, and costs $379.00

Post by RockyRoad
Bought a PaddyPallin Vista raincoat in 1996 not long after I got into
bushwalking (about $320 back then). It got stolen from my car out the
front of my house in 2000.
Bought another Vista (about $400 this time). Well this one has
permanently disappeared after taking it to a nightime band rehearsal on
a rainy night in Dummoyne earlier in the year. Darn it.
These things are now listed at $570. I'm aware that Goretex shells are
not light and the thought of my rain needs costing me around $1300 in
less then ten years has got me wondering if I should be thinking of
something less "serious" and lighter, and less expensive - those two
previous raincoats were bought before I had small children to feed!
I walk in NSW. Predominantly in places like the Budawangs, The Royal,
Heathcote NP and Blue Mtns. There was one day in winter where I walked
from Mt Cole out to WogWog in torrential rain for the entire day and I
was thankful for a good raincoat but that has not been the norm, and
usually it is 830grams sitting in my backpack.
Anyone that's "downgraded" want to share with me what you use now?
Rocky.
--
Rocky Road - in Oz